The Judgement in yet another case involving the out of town hackney carriage saga.
Before :
LORD JUSTICE MUNBY
MR JUSTICE LANGSTAFF
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Between :
| STOCKTON-ON-TEES BOROUGH COUNCIL | Appellant | |
| - and - | ||
| (1) ALAN FIDLER(2) HABIB HUSSAIN
(3) GHOLAMREZA KESHAVARZ ZAMANIAN |
Respondents |
Ms E Joan Smith (instructed by Jonathan Nertney, Stockton-on-Tees Borough Council) for the Appellant
Mr Jonathan Rodger (instructed by Nicholson & Morgan) for the First, Second and Third Respondents
Hearing date: 8 July 2010
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Microsoft Word Document Approved Judgment
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{ 22 comments… read them below or add one }
Admin
Has no one picked up yet on the recent judgment and the consequences means out of town hacks are permitted to work in other areas to which they are licensed and therefore they are here to stay !
@ian shanks: I don’t think the whole thing is there! I can’t make head nor tail of it myself but you seem to think it’s a Victory. So we will have to see what happens next.
@Admin: Victory for whom? What the legal people have clarified is that a hackney can work as a private hire car in an area that it was not originally licensed. Therefore what is known as Berwick bandits are perfectly legal and can continue to do what they do and as an operator I commit no offence by using them. If you that’s a victory for the likes of me than I guess your right just didn’t see it that way.
Anyway we now have legal clarity on this point once and for all.
@ian shanks: I would say it’s very advantageous to you given the amount of Berwick cars you have and the rental income from them, But yes it’s a victory for you and of course you see it that way. It now allows you to run your business regionwide without fear of breaking cross border hiring rules, which has been your point all along. You have made many comments here in the past putting your case for ‘out of town cars’. So it must be a nice day for you now. I still don’t think I have the entire document though.
@Admin: I will send you the document again, while this does work in my favor, and the way my cars operate. I also wish it had not come to this. If local authorities had not driven me, and so many others away, by being so obstructive and dictorial in their ways, this would never have happened. But, I am now back to saying to you again, and the trade, that the problem here and everywhere is the authorities as well as the officers in them, who believe it’s their playground and think that we must do whatever they come up with. They have forgotten it is indeed them that are there to provide us with a service.
Well if this is indeed the case,and a driver can get a car and plate from Penzance and operate it (private hire) of course in Aberdeen,then why not everyone do that.
We can tell enforcement to politely (piss off) as Newcastle say they have no authority over `out of towners`,so we can work where we like,charge what we like,since only Cornwall council have any say,and they have no idea whose driving the car,where its working or anything else.
Sounds like utopia,no checks,standard MOT,doesnt matter if I`m rude to customers,as who do you complain to. If the driver has no idea where the customer is going since he cant speak the language and just follows satnav. (better warn my fellow crewmen at Seahouses,they might have a few more service launches to Holy Island causeway,after satnav tell some dipstick to cross a causeway thats 3“ under water and tide coming in fast. (Dont laugh! I have been on a couple of shouts when that has happened….ITS NOT fUNNY ).
Also what do we do about CRB checks,which council needs them,Devon and Cornwall or North Tyneside/Newcastle,also since things like enforcement no longer matter,do we need a badge,and in what language,Dutch,Finish<Norwegian<Swedish,German,Croat,Polish,Russian.
Tack for att vi alla i denna nya politik,ingen verksallighet och en allman gratis for alla ar definitiut ratt vag att ga.
Inga tester,inga skyltar,se bara till att vi vet vem du ska betala alla vara vinster for nar vi alla ut £1.20 per mil,och naturligtuis gratis biljett pa juldagen.
Tack se mjcket for min frihet Ian…….fanga dig pa Heathrow rank nagon gang I mitt korda mondeo.
PS As Ian doesnt seem to think rules and regs matter,ie driver speaks same language as customer,so rely on satnav, the above is basically just thanking him for his efforts…….i wonder how many out there can read what i have written, ill give a clue…….its a european language,from a country very proud of its Identity and whose people can possibly speak english better than we can.
Since we are multi cultural ill just say dosvidanya for now.
@john dodds: Newcastle will say anything but it’s pray’s! All they have to say is IF YOUR ON THE STREETS OF NEWCASTLE YOU COME UNDER THEIR AITHORITY. And so they could stop anyone they wish. Let’s remember before any court case was decided, you didn’t have to have an operator’s license to operate hackney carriages and hackneys carriages don’t have to keep booking records! So don’t tell me or anyone else about controls and how important they are.
Oh and by the way it was not me that neither brought the case nor was I involved or make the decision on it so why do you suggest this is all my doing.
@john dodds: “(better warn my fellow crewmen at Seahouses,they might have a few more service launches to Holy Island causeway,after satnav tell some dipstick to cross a causeway thats 3“ under water and tide coming in fast. (Dont laugh! I have been on a couple of shouts when that has happened….ITS NOT fUNNY ).”
So that’s why they call you Captain Pugwash, I always thought it was because of your dodgy haircut. Lol
LOL thanks for the compliment my friend…….better than some names ive been called…..but im afraid ive never been a skipper……..or coxswain for that matter…….
Simply put Mr Shanks,it was your doing,you and your friend David Wilson,who issued all the Berwick plates in the full knowledge that non of them would ever see Berwick again,save for 1 day annually to renew possibly or maybe test.
Due to you exploiting a loophole in the law,you showed a lot of other `operators` how to get around the laws and licensing system,creating a system where we now have some drivers who dont know the difference between Newcastle on Tyne and Newcastle under Lyme.
But of course the great satnav is there to tell them that…..isnt it.
As I said before,when i get my Aberdeen plate,will i see you on the rank at Heathrow,Mr Shanks,since supposedly the courts have given you the right to work where you like on what ever plate you like…..or cant you read the last bit of my post……undrar vad i London forama kommer att saga till ass pa deras rang ……syns senare ……god natt.
@john dodds: John the nearest i have to your quote is “”What in London forama will be saga to; pa their rank ..also included recent ..good night. ”
so maybe the answer is n0 ! not sure what your saying and why you sound so pissed off ?
John i think you should realise that it is law and that there was no i.e “loopholes” exploited.
Times change as we have now 24 hour licensing laws on public houses and 24 hour shopping which would all be deemed as breaking the law a long time ago.
Sorry for the sarcasm john but …get rid of that bale of hay out of your boot because times move on.
@smudger: This case doesn’t change anything, it tells us what we already knew, that a Hackney Carriage may work as a private hire outside of it’s licenced area.
But ! where a Council has a policy in place that states : ‘Vehicle,Driver & Operator must all be licenced by the same authority’ it goes out the window. Or have Berwick plates suddenly been let back into Newcastle?
@Hackney Driver: The judge ruled that it is unlawful for any council to prevent a ph operator licensed by that council from using hackney carraiges from outside the area for covering ph work.
@smudger: What the judges pointed out was that every hackney carriage proprietor has the inherent right to carry out bookings anywhere in england and wales. that doesn’t mean that an operator, who’s conditions of licence state that operator,vehicle & driver must all be licenced by the same authority, can piggy back on the inherent rights of hackney carriage proprietors for his own ends.
@p j dalton: http://www.instituteoflicensing.org/article_id/1000482/2010/10/14/Taxi+judgement+Stockton+on+Tees+BC.html
@john dodds: Fairs Fair john!.I had a Newcastle hack driver ask me where barrack rd was a couple of weeks ago,so dont tar everyone with the same brush!And another one asked me where the RVI leazes wing was!!All i mean is if newcastle taxi drivers are so clued up then why was i asked where these locations are??
@p j dalton: Quote “This judgment makes it clear that putting a condition on operators’ licenses that attempts to prevent that operator from using hackney carriages licensed by a different district from that which licenses the operator will be of no effect.
It also confirms that a hackney carriage can be used to pre-booked work outside its district, even if that district is some considerable distance from the district in which the vehicle is undertaking the pre-booked work. In R (App Newcastle City Council) v Berwick-upon-Tweed Borough Council [2008] EWHC 2369 (Admin) (5 November 2008) a hackney carriage licensed by Berwick was being used in Newcastle, some 65 miles away. Stockton is a further 40 miles further south”
Once again people are plucking the bits they think enforce their argument and ignoring the rest
So lets all sit back and see how Newcastle continue or North Tyneside choose to go on from here.
My hounest feeling is that this practice of openly using a licenced hackney carriadge 100 miles from it licensed district cannot be acceptable, theres too many risks and situations of responsibility that WILL arrise. And for all those who think some ‘one tier’ system will be conclided over night, think again its been reimforced again that a private hire vehicle is not and will never be a hackney carriadge.
Actually smudger,you are 100% right as far as newcastles drivers ,or should i say as far as some drivers knowledge of the city is concerned. The vast majority of drivers i would say do a pretty good job and for the most part,try to be fare and dont rip people off,but as in ALL jobs,there is a small minority who take the piss,and because of those wankers,the rest of us get labelled. Unfortunately we have a council in town,who for reasons best known to them selves,would appear to believe in a policy of `non enforcement`,that is…..leave well alone,sit on our arses and do nothing,get paid of course,but do nowt …and let the taxi trade sink or swim…..hopefully sink and thats the end of the problem.
They will do an odd sting now and then,just for the paperwork excercise,so it looks good on paper,then forget it.
We have drivers who cant find the way out of the bleeding station without a satnav,refuse to take a job under £10/20 …jam the bloody cab into gear if they smell a wheelchair on a rank ,or in 1 case though a passenger out of the car on a roundabout because she didnt have enough money to cover the last couple of miles home at 3am.
So Smudger,I know we have a lot of very pissed off but good drivers out there,BUT we also have some `shite`,due to the council allowing anyone to operate without either checks made,out of are plates,or what ever reason,and im sure you will agree with that. But we have to play the cards we are dealt,even if the Law is so far out of date that it puts the telephone in the same era as Hadrian,and allowing the mess we currently have is no good for either private hire or hackney. It may supprise you to know that there are things I think Ian Shanks is quite right about,but theres a lot I dont agree with him on,one of those things is his method of getting things done,by exploiting loopholes in the law for his own ends,but enough said of that.
Im not that old as it happens,but you can call me an old bastard if you like…..been around too long to worry about that, but just think how far down the shitter the trade has gone in the last 10/20 years,since deregulation,PC crap,and all…….many of the drivers out there would at 1 time never have been given a licence.
Just to end……a friend of mine from Stockholm in Sweden recently informed me of a tightening of their system,where..like London,each `driver candidate` had to pass an exam to prove their local knowledge before a licence was issued,over there apparently its in two parts, a verbal test and a written test, so the candidate must demonstrate a good understanding of both English and Swedish…..any others is a bonus……how many fares you had who told you they had a driver who didnt seem to understand what they were asked. Be Honest my friend……….I know lots of drivers had this comment made. All the best………..
Dear Andy Warhole,can i just add,for the sake of those amongst us that support a 1 teir system,sorry to spoil your day…
London,and I know they have a different system to the rest of us…..but why do you think the `Public Carriage Office is noe licensing the `mini cabs(private hire) down there.
Over the last 100 years that `taxis` have existed,in 1 form or another,..in London,,they have always maintained a 1 plate system or if you like a 1teir system……taxis only and no private hire,(officially) at any rate.
Following pressure from groups like Suzi Lamplugh,to name but 1,and many problems with `unlicensed mini cabs`,flimping,and no checks on drivers,cars or anything else,….some womble decided it was in the `public interest,and a public safety concern ` that ALL drivers and cars should be licenced,therefore admitting that a 1 teir system cannot work. Only took London 70plus years to fall in line with the rest of the country….but they have now done so.
Yes you can have a `taxi` only system,but somewhere along the line a mini cab will appear,licenced or not,and with `imigration` as wide open as the atlantic,anyone from abroad can walk into a mini cab office,and provided he/she can drive…reasonably straight,they get a job,whether they know how to get from Marble Arch,a quarter mile up edgeware rd to edgeware tube station or not. In our case how to get from Fawdon to St James Park,as i was asked.
So shout all you like,but I think our 2 tier system is here to stay,not because WE want it,but because from the public safety side of things its the safest way to go.
i m doing black cab in chesterfield .i living sheffield i would like to do work in sheffield with private hire is that posible thanks
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